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March 25 2017

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March 24 2017

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Thanks, gonna watch that later.
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Just to be clear about that: I wrote like three times that these statements are not based in my worldview in that post. Having said that: I also did not mean to imply that even the people whom´s world view I was explagiating mean to say that everything is driven by art. Or design. Which they seem to conflagrate as made evident in the links posted above.
 
Neither do I myself think that everything is driven by art.

All that talking for another group aside, If you mean to say that the only thing influencing science (or, let´s limit ourselves to the STEM-Fields, shall we?) is an inherent interest in science, competition and business I respectfully disagree. I do not mean that there is no science without art or something like that, just to be clear. I do believe that there are many more influences on science and that art is one of them can inspire al sorts of changes in a person. I do also believe that these can also influence the work of scientists. I distinctly remember reading something about Einstein describing the theory of relativity as a musical thought, I googeled a bit and found one, I think, very fitting phrase:

"The theory of relativity occurred to me by intuition, and music is the driving force behind this intuition. My parents had me study the violin from the time I was six. My new discovery is the result of musical perception"

I am shure there are other examples as well.

cheers

March 23 2017

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OK, so now you post something interweaving all sort of statements I mad, give them a new meaning, a new context and add some statements I never made. You have effectively made any further discussion imposible. Until the next time you randomly pop up, I guess? Or do you actually expect an answer?
snuggle
"smartphone isnt iphone. iphone invented nothing of the above."
I am afraid you misunderstood. Or you are just you know, trying to put worths in my mouth. Either option would shock me! I did not claim that Apple invented for example the rectangle with rounded corners (even though they sort of tried to make that point in their lawsuit to samsung) but I was, perhaps wrongly, under the impression that the Iphone was the first device that united all those characteristics. And if it wasn´t, feel free to replace Iphone with any other device in the original sentence. Point is that the design of an object enables its functionality.

"not every literature is art."
You are right, I was OBVIOUSLY using literature in the broad sense. It is incoceiveable that there is aanother narrower meani ... wait, I was talking about science fiction, right? Fuck it;  PERRY RHODAN IS ART!!!!
JOkes aside: Perry rhodan is a crative product and creativity is what the STEAM people try to encourage. (renember: the ominous STEAM people, not snuggle)

"calling every written word art makes our shit here also an art"
I mean of course all I write here is art, but do you mean to imply by that that you don´t consider trolling an art? Why on earth are you doin this then? Is it compulsive?

"everyone who says otherwise should be skinned, burned to ashes and scattered in the wind. no discussion about that."
I am scared now.

"is a status symbol, isn´t it because it, you know, says something about the owner?  thats marketing bullshit. it just says you have too much money and too less brain."
Weird. so it is marketing bullshit to say that a symbol says something about someone but at the same time it says that someone is something else. It is almost like symbols could have different meanings for different peoples. It is amlost like symbols where, you know, symbolic and would have to be decoded and that the result of the decoding would depend on the emisary and the recipient and the context and the yuxtaposition with other symbols to create a message. I wish there was some sort of theory, perhaps condensed into some sort of convenient diagramm that could explain this to me. To bad that such a thing most definitvely does not exist.

"Could this not be called, with some hyperbole admittedly, a story?
no."

reeeeeeeeeealy?
snuggle
I get what you are saying about the frustration and in some instances the same thing has happened to me. However this is not limited to modern or contemporary art imho. I don´t find Michelangelos works aesthetically pleasing, but with proper explanation the ceiling of the sistine chapel fascinated me and spoke to me on a deep level. (Yes, I do know it is a pain in the ass to paint frescoes, but so it is to walk all of the chinese wall barefoot as part of a performance.)

I have had endless discussions about what is art and what isn´t. The conclusion I arived at that works best for me, is that "art is what is legitimized as art" In the sense that, there is this huge "Überbau" (Galleries, Critics, Art Scholars, Art Colleges, and of course the art market) without whoms consent something is not labeled as art. I am not shure, but I think that in all societies who have a conception of art similar to ours there where similar instances. Otherwhise Art is just part of daily life or part of religion or whatever. Hence the collectors of painted waterpots or ritual masks of "exotic" peoples. Hence a recognized poets poems are art and lil janines prepuberscent poems are not. Don´t get me wrong, I do think that there is something to humans that lets them undertake endeavours more or less for their own sake, a creative artistic drive if you like. However, this is not necesarily labeled as Art.

Sorry for this wall of text, but I would like to share something that very much affected how I view Art:
Ever since I was about nine I was fascinated with graff. At first I only liked the murals and masterpieces, the really elaborate stuff. I thought "wow, this is so intense" (novelty and sensorial owerwhelmedness) and "how do they paint that with a can!" (admiration of labour intensity and complexity) The more I looked at the walls the more intresting I found the composition aspects, how some letters seemed to dance and others didn´t, how some pieces seemed balanced and others akward and clumsy, ans some pieces I would have found inferior at first (because they where less elaborate or sloppier) where all of a sudden super interesting. At this point I was not admireing the labour, but the skill. I also started understanding people quoting certain styles and understood the reference they where makeing. Some pieces made me laugh like a good pun. I was admireing the play with a self referential set of symbols. Still later I started looking at Tags, which I had thought as as abhorrently ugly a few years ago. In them I admired the abstraction and the way in which a "problem" of representation was "solved" elegantly. And then, in the midst of all this, the street art Hype kicked in. All of a sudden certain pieces where more valued than others, suddenly there where guided Tours threw my neighborhood and someone told people what piece to look at, and what it meant, how it was made and why it was valuable. There where tons of Photo books coming out about street art and Graff. Bansky happened.Some pieces where sold for huge summs, galleries exposed Graff photographies, etc. At that point it became art. Not all of it, just the pieces that where judged as valuable. By the market, by the street art tours and blogs. An original Bansky stencil could be literally sawed of a wall and sold, city councils put glass in front of famous works, yet an identical copy of the stencil was worthless. Yet people started doing this when it was considered vandalism. most of it is still widely considered to be vandalism yet people still do it. Because humans need that sort of shit. But it needn´t be labeled as art to be valuable.

Sorry, I got sort of carried away with this one.
snuggle
look what the cat dragged in =)

aight, I´ll play a little.

"what exactly did iphone design to influence the way"
it kicked of the trend of millions of people carrying little rectangularish conveniently portable computers with a phone function and a camera whose primary input mechanisms are a touchscreen and an adjacent button below that screen, located in such a matter that they are primarily operated with the thumb of the dominant hand and can be and are used without greater complications for a wide variety of functions in a wide variety of situations.

"please dont use art and design as synonyms"
That´s what the STEAM people seem to do. Well, not exactly as synonyms but they do seem to mash them together in a rather disadvantageous way. Hence not my paradigm and all that. I really thought I made it clear that I don´t agree with that discourse.

"how does art drive innovation, and how is china not capable of this and what have articles to do with it and what does economics in this case?"
Again: not my paradigm. If you google something along the lines of "why china can copy but can´t create" youll find tons of said articles that will try to answer your questions. This articles mostly seem to follow the discourse I caricatured in the second paragraph.

"you work in advertisment, right?"
no =(

"please also dont use art and literature as synonyms"
Well, I did not do that. But if you wish to define literature as something that is not art/an artform/part of "the arts", just do it man. While you are at it, you can also define the typical colour of grass as blue and our arguments on soup as done in good faith and out of a sincere interest in understanding the others point of view.

"at this point i lol'd. you really work in advertisment, right"
stop hurting my feelings bad boy. And still no. =((

"and you thing this is because of "art", right? has clearly nothing to do with status symbols, right?"
Say, if something, for instances a big fat muscle car, or expensive colourful shoes, is a status symbol, isn´t it because it, you know, says something about the owner? That he or she can aford it, amongst other things, for example? But also other things. Things that might be referenced in the aspect of such an object. Like if it is bulky or sleek or aerodynamic or has a Jaguar on it. Let´s say a Ford Mustang says something like "I am a powerful rich and potent man with a somehow rebelious side". Could this not be called, with some hyperbole admittedly, a story? No? OK, you are the boss Sir mister bossman! (I reeally hate that you are alwas right) =(

"you dont arguing, youre just brabbling. the only thing i notice is that youre a mindless hipster"
Darn that hurt my feelings real bad.

"i question that also"
What exactly? That I have a different view, that I  am willing to discuss it, that I dont think it is necesary to discuss? (you don´t actually have to answer this one. Don´t get me wrong, you don´t have to answer anything at all actually)
You where going to say "all of it" wheren´t you?

"cant speak for her, but i define this as "everything degenerate""
Good for you champ. Good for you.
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Business Cat - postrach korposzczurów.
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I do not think that those links differ significantly from what the wikipedia article says. It is not about "art pour l´art", at least I don´t read it like that.

I think I have heared the acronym STEM referenced almost exclusively in an educational context. In people discussing (on talkshows or articles or Blogposts or whatever) the capabilities that young people should get tought and the funding that the academics fields in question should get to be more precise. The discourse mostly goes somewhere along the lines of "oh my god, we need to be more competitive in these fields so that our economy can prosper, and if we don´t do that the chinese/indians/japanese/whatever will get too far ahead of us". If one agrees with such a discourse, in my opinion the inclusion of art would make sense:

-because design influences the way technology can be used (think about what the iphone did)
-because art/design drives innovation (think about the 10000 Articles about how Chinas huge economy suposedly is unable to come up with inovative products, yet is great at copying)
-because art drives science (think about how pretty mauch every space exploration innovation was preceded by some obscure novel, and how many L&R people are huge science fiction geeks)
-because people don´t only buy shit because they need it or the use they get of it, but because of the story a product tells, what it represents and how it loks (think about kids wanting the 100€ Addidas sneakers and not the 25€ Deichmann ones of the same Quality).

I am argueing within a paradigm I do not agree with, I think you can notice that. I think you get what I am mean though.

I have a different, less utilitarian view on the subject alltogether, and if you like we can discuss it, but I don´t think it necesary.

About your resentment towards modern art* - well there is no arguing with taste, but I think you are missing out. =)

*(I don´t mean to be a wiseass, this is an honest question: Do you mean modern art as in "everything after van Gough an Cezanne and stuff" or "everything after those darn hippies started with their perfomance thingys" or "those darn hippie performance thingys, everything else is fine" or  "every piece that needs a darn essay to be understood" or yet another thing?)
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I never heared aboutthat whole STEAM instead of STEM idea, so I made a little research. I think he misunderstood completely what it is supposed to mean. But then again, judging on the huge pool of resentment he seems to draw from, it did not exactly come as a shock.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEAM_fields
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March 20 2017

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March 19 2017

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